Thank you, windofvenus

[sabrinamari]

My friend windofvenus recently posted this:

"Don Miguel Ruiz says that you will only allow others to abuse you as much as you abuse yourself. If you reduce the self-abuse, your tolerance for external abuse will decrease."

Here, she is quoting the author of The Four Agreements.

Reading this, I suddenly felt excellent---my tolerance for the abusive actions and words of others has gone waaaaaaay down. I'll walk away quietly well before I'll stay for a second helping. This shows real progress in my growth, and I think it means that I am abusing myself less.

In turn, this must mean that I am resonating with more self-love, and thus, can expect to call kinder, gentler, wiser folk to my side.

Now, that is a beautiful thing.

Comments

[windofvenus.livejournal.com]

You're very welcome!
I'm thrilled that my entry brought you joy! So often, I read your journal and see things that make me think or bring some clarity to a situation I am in. I'm happy that something I have posted has resonated for you! YAY!
Keep loving!
~hugs~

[sabrinamari.livejournal.com]

It did. It really did. Thank you.

[tigerweave.livejournal.com]

Um, hi!

You know, I can see the point in that the less you tolerate people treating you badly, the more you will end up with decent people in your life.

However I think his understanding of abuse is a bit airy fairy. Abuse is not something you "allow" others to do to you. It is something people do to others that they think they can get away with it. Everyone has times in their life where they are vulnerable, and if an abusive person comes along they are unlucky. But they are not, in their vulnerability, allowing that person to abuse them.

The best you can do with abusive people is do your best to signal to potential abusers that you are not vulnerable to them.

*shrugs*

Who is this Don Miguel Ruiz? Is he American? His beliefs about abuse are quite typically American. In Australia we tend to see it differently.

[sabrinamari.livejournal.com]

Hello tiger weave,

Thank you for speaking here. I am thinking about what you've said. I don't know much about Don Miguel Ruiz other than having read The Four Agreements.

My thoughts about allowing abuse have been shaped by my early experience and the mental health paradigm in the United States. It is commonly understood here that if a person grows up in a household with a mentally, emotionally or physically abusive parent, their understanding of what is normal in a loving relationship is quite powerfully shaped by that experience. It is the understanding of the mental health paradigm that they will consider the abusive actions of future beloveds---actions that echo the experiences they had with their household---to be, if not normal, then at least comfortable.

In other words, people will only feel truly safe replicating what they know, even if that thing has strongly abusive components. My own experience bears this out quite beautifully.

My household almost designed me to look for and attach to narcissistic people. It took a 15-year marriage, the end of that relationship and some serious reading/therapy to realize what I was doing: I was allowing---actually, unconsciously selecting for---abusive partners.

I can only speak for myself, but I found this process of discovery to be a difficult and daunting. On some level, what I had been experiencing with an abusive partner---though very painful---felt normal.

Still, when that marriage ended I had the opportunity to reflect, read, rethink things and and see the bigger patterns of my life more clearly. That was really helpful!

And when my current partner found me, I was far along enough in my own change process to give him a chance, even though he didn't fit my comfortable abusive mold. That was a very good thing for my happiness!

I am still, however, "learning to signal to abusers that I am not vulnerable to them." I REALLY like the way you said this! Thank you so much for that.

[tigerweave.livejournal.com]

Oh! That sounds exactly like I understand too. What you describe is commonly understood here as well. And what you say from your background explains how you interpret the quote in that way.

I don't come from such a background like that about abuse, but I do from violence. Violence is pretty bread and butter for me, and I have to watch that I don't brush aside danger signals as they are so normal and I am fundamentally not too scared of violence.

I do have to remember though, that violence doesn't happen in a vacuum and in relationships it, or the threat of physical violence IS a kind of abuse, and remember to register it as such when assessing relationships.

I also come from a background where I was blamed for the abuse inflicted on me, and often blamed for abuse inflicted on my siblings as well, so it has been very hard for me to accept that actually it wasn't my fault. A significant part of the counselling/learning I've had has focused on how a person can end up in a situation where they are completely out of control, and thus if/when someone abuses them, they are not in a position to stop them. And accepting that situations where you are out of control are a part of life, whether we as humans can handle it, or admit it, or our faith will allow us to believe it, or not.

And even now, when someone does abuse me, like for eg, the incident a few months ago where a neighbour sexually harrassed me. I wasn't "Allowing him" to do it, or "putting up with him" doing it. He had instigated it all and implemented it and basically gotten away with it before I even registered just how appalling his behaviour was. And from that first opening sexual harrassement, my behaviour from then on was doing what I could, based on my instinct and experience, to make sure it didn't go physical. (It didn't. But he is a total arsehole and alcoholic and reeks of violence).

However he presumed a vulnerability in me to it and acted on it. He didn't actually "Get away with it" - I reported him to the police. However he had prsumed he could. As my mum, and our next door neighbour, both of whom are overweight with greying hair both noted, this man has never done anything like that to them. To this man I look sweet, and I am personable, small, a neat figure, and am quite pretty (Heh so mum insists! I just see a birds-nest of curls in the mirror :-D)
And so simply my physical looks signalled to him I was vulnerable to him sexually harrassing me.

He was wrong. But there is nothing I can do about my looks. (Especially those damned shirley temple little-girl-like curls!!!)

So even "learning to signal to abusers I am not vulnerable to them" doesn't work so well all the time.

Hey actually I know a LOT about that whole concept and how it works in practise if you want to discuss it more :-)

I am glad you like the way I said it!

Hey I hope this all makes sense. It is late! I should go to bed :-)

Nice to meet you Sabrina!

[sabrinamari.livejournal.com]

tigerweave, this is both sad and useful. I am sorry that you are so often put in this position, but I would like to benefit from what you have learned from it, if that's alright with you.

Can you tell me more about what it means to "signal to abusers that I am not vulnerable to them?"

I would like to understand this better.

[sabrinamari.livejournal.com]

Thinking further about this, I must own that I am apt to allow narcissists, borderlines and active addicts into my life, even though I know better. They look shiny to me. Other, healthier people do too, but it is harder for me to sort them out from each other. It's the particular blinders my natal household gave me. So I am still learning and growing around this.

[tigerweave.livejournal.com]

Heh, funny. The description "shiny" is a good one! I have found that with people who are very familiar with violence.

How do you work out or try to work out the borderlines/active addicts and narcissists out from the healthy people? Do you look for signs? If so what kind? *curious*

I am good with collecting Lame Ducks, as my mother calls them *sigh* All the people who were raped or sexually abused who talk to me coz they know I will understand. Which is fine. But a fair few of those talk and expect me to support them in their dysfunctions caused by their abuse. Because, you know, I Understand what it is like!


And the truth is, I DO know how terrible it is to be so hurt. But I am not a counsellor, nor do I want to be. I just know a lot about these issues from doing a lot of hard yards of counselling FOR myself. And if they hook me in to supporting/holding them up, I get so terribly drained, and don't help them, (no matter how much they may say they do to try to keep me holding them up). And it is ... yeah one of my areas of growing

[sabrinamari.livejournal.com]

tigerweave, I understand that it can feel both very rewarding and very challenging to support folks who are grappling with issues you yourself have grappled with before. You can feel torn between wanting to help and wanting to avoid getting sucked in to a pit you know very, very well.

I think it's good to maintain a balance: giving when you can, withdrawing and re-balancing when you can't.

And you are right that sometimes, no matter what you offer, it doesn't help.

I think that people can only learn what they almost already know, and great patience is required when working with others in this way. Sometimes it just won't help at all.

I find that it is often a good idea refrain from offering too detailed an analysis to anyone who does not yet know enough to ask the right questions.

Usually, they'll just resist/reject what you have to offer. I think it's best to put people in circumstances where they teach themselves whenever I can, rather than teaching them anything directly.

Also, telling them too much impinges on their agency. When they're ready, they'll look for more information.

[sabrinamari.livejournal.com]

So you know enough to ask the right question:

"How do you work out or try to work out the borderlines/active addicts and narcissists out from the healthy people? Do you look for signs? If so what kind? *curious*"

I'd love to give a wise, impressive answer, an answer like, "Well, here's a handy list of borderline and narcissist characteristics. I've memorized them, and I run a mental checklist whenever I feel suspiciously drawn to someone."

Wouldn't that be a great answer? Such lists *do* exist everywhere on the web.

However, for me, it generally goes something like this: six to eighteen months into a relationships of some type, something happens to flip a light bulb in my head, and I say, "Oh FUCK, I did it again! How did I not see/integrate the fact that this person is a classic (narcissist, borderline, actively self-medicating addict)? The current pain I am experiencing is likely to be tied up in this, somehow."

It does not help that many narcissists are brilliant, charming and excellent at image-management. They are often exceedingly clever people, and initially, fun to be around.

Borderlines can be charismatic, gifted, intelligent and quite compelling company. They are often exciting, talented and very fetching, attractive people when they are having good periods.

What narcissists and borderlines are NOT: consistently compassionate and kind. My most recent litmus tests revolve around checking people for evidence of real compassion before I let down my guard.

This test does not work for active addicts, many of whom are beautiful, wonderful, compassionate people. The problems here usually revolve around impaired judgement and ability to make long-term wise choices.

*Shrug*

So, I know all this, and often, very often, I can't apply it until I'm already enmeshed.

The situation reminds me of some of the lyrics to Mars Volta's song Televators:

You should have seen
The curse that flew right by you
Page of concrete
Sting walks crutch in hobbled sway
Auto-da-fé
A capillary hint of red
Only this manupod
Crescent in shape has escaped


But that's kind of melodramatic. : )

My next goals: learn to identify and respond compassionately and appropriately much, much sooner. Learn to climb out of the hole as soon as I fall in and take full responsibility for doing so.

I wish I give you a more useful, practical response. I hope this helps a little bit.

[tigerweave.livejournal.com]

This is really interesting! I love your descriptions of the different kinds of people you are drawn to. I really appreciate you taking the time to explain.

You are right, there are lists on the internet, I was looking once, and found quite a few. I guess I never felt I was understanding narcisism and Borderline that much. Maybe just haven't run into too many people that are obviously so.

I certainly understand that charisma and ... brightness, attractiveness and charm they can have. My own father had it. I used to watch him with people like the "checkout chic" or other chance-met people and think "They think he is so lovely and are really enjoying being around him, and he has really brightened their day, I can see it. But they can have no idea how terrible a monster he is under that charm."

My youngest brother inherited that charisma, and also my father's gorgeous singing voice. He put the two together and for a time followed a singing career. He was the consummate performer onstage due to that charisma.

And I've found the same with addicts. Most people are shocked at the thought of someone being addicted to drugs, but the reality is, it seems so much to me a physical addiction. As you say, self-medicating, rather than them being some crazy bad-news junkie half living on the streets, stealing to support their habit.

And yes yes yes about the judgement, and ability to make healthy long-term decisions being impaired. Which sets up a cycle of their lives are unhappy, making it harder for them to cope so they self-medicate more which further impairs their ability to make healthy long-term decisions.

Back to lists, though. One of the things I've had trouble with is just extricating myself from interactions. Whether abusive or not. I mean even just saying goodbye and hanging up on the phone. I was so often hit for trying to be assertive like that as a kid.

I did a workshop through the rape crisis centre I was getting counselling from. They gave us a list - literally! of tactics to use. And it has been so very very wonderful and helpful in the years since!

Nice when it works so easily and well, eh!