The nature of the gods

[sabrinamari]

A friend of mine asked some interesting questions that led to reflection about the nature of the gods, and even a little writing. I'm posting part of what came up here. I'd love to know other folks' thoughts on this always- controversial topic.



The nature of the Gods is a big issue in our Blue Star community. It's big because we have lots of different opinions about it, and some of our voices have rung much stronger than others. For most of the time I've spent as a Blue Star Priestess, the closest thing to a "party line" has sounded something like this:

"The Gods are not symbolic. They are not Jungian archetypes. They are literal and real, and if you want to be part of Blue Star, you need to understand that our tradition is focused primarily on worship, not on magic. We worship the Gods and acknowledge that they are real and literal; they guide us and help us create good lives."

For a long time there was real disdain of people who held different opinions. But people will hold their own views nevertheless---a good thing, I think. The ability to integrate diversity makes communities stronger. Here are some of the voices I've heard. They are not necessarily in conflict with each other:

"The Gods are Jungian archetypes."

"The Gods are parts of our own deep selves/higher selves."

"The Gods aren't 'real'."

"The Gods are mischevious entities who come from a different, but real plane of existence. Some are interested in us and want to help us, or at least those of us whom they take special interest in. Some are utterly bored of us or think we're stupid. Some actively wish us harm."

"Humans are to Gods as cats are to humans."

"The priorities of the Gods are so different than those of humans that they simply do not see things the way we do: our brief lives are much too short for them to understand our priorities. Thus, they may find our suffering amusing or incomprehensible. Be careful of them, because they do not necessaily understand how to refrain from harming you!"

After many of years of thinking and exploring and taking different positions, this is what I think:


This is the wrong question.


1. I believe that our limited human brains could not possibly comprehend the true reality of the Gods' nature, in all its glorious complexity, if we were to be shown it. Therefore, there isn't much point in pursuing it.

2. However, aside from this, the interesting questions are not, "What are the Gods?" and "Are they real?", but "Are the Gods useful? If so, how?".

This follows my general rule of thumb: when in doubt, do not ask,"Is it real?". Instead, ask,"Is it useful?" I adopted this guideline from Barbara Brennan, who wrote a useful series of books on energy healing.

3. I am interesting in one thing and one thing only: facilitating personal transformation and growth. I want to be an agent of positive change who uses every tool at my disposal to support and encourage myself and others to blossom into the fullest expressions of who they can be. Period.

All tools to help me further this goal are useful and interesting. Anything that's not useful in this endeavor is not worth my time and effort, and I lose interest in it quickly.

I have spent many years being suspicious of drawing down. In the past, my questions have included,"What's the point? How does this help us grow wiser and more powerful? Whether the Gods are 'real' or not, what can they do for us that's really worth all this effort?"

Now, I'm a little less suspicious. I've seen some cases where drawing was used to help the person who did it, as well as help community members. I can see how it might be a useful tool for growth. But I still see it as an imperfect tool at best. It can become a distraction from growing up and the hard, unglamorous work of personal transformation. It can even be self-indulgent. And it can be used to give life to or sustain dysfunctional patterns.


But I can see it as a potentially useful tool in the right hands. Still, it's a double-edged sword at best, and care is always needed with it.

Comments

[tigira.livejournal.com]

Invocation is a useful tool, and imperfect. It's imperfect because the parties to it (both the gods and the humans) are imperfect. This is fine, and good, IMO.

My question for most people is not about the nature of the gods. That is something that I can guide folks to, but everyone has to come up with their own understanding. Telling students that mine alone is right is arrogant and irresponsible.

My question is, "When you come in contact with deity, how do you respond? How do you respond then and there? How do you respond days, weeks, or months later, as their words or appearance come back to your memory? Has it changed you in even a small way?"

If we only experience Their presence and then go on as if we didn't, what's the point?

[elphaba-of-oz.livejournal.com]

Watching some of the sheit that went on during certain "Invocations" back in the day made it very, very hard for me to believe that invocation was useful, or even benign. I take what I can from it. THe drawing down at the BS Litha circle wasn't intended for me, but it spoke to me just the same.

In the words of the immortal Lewis Carrol - "When I use a word," said Humpty Dumpty, "It means exactly what I intend it to mean, neither more nor less."

[catpaw67.livejournal.com]

I will try to respond with more detail later, but I have seen invocation used as a very useful tool for transformation. Some people will not hear things until they are told them by someone/thing they view as an authority figure. I recall amyslay getting some highly critical advice from Badhbh years ago which made a big difference her life.

In addition, I have gained a lot of interesting insight into the nature of deity from invocation that has helped me to understand my level of belief in them better.

One more thing that I feel compelled to note is that it can be an opportunity to experience connection that one might not find otherwise, both with deity and with others.

As you know well, I have seen it abused terribly, and it took me a long time to begin using it as a tool myself. Also, just as a note, I don't find it to be a lot of trouble to go to. For me, at least, invocation is quite easy and mostly enjoyable.

Your mileage may vary, of course, and I will always respect your feelings and boundaries on the topic.

[shakti-lemaris.livejournal.com]

The core members of Evergreen were extremely suspicious of drawing downs for a long time based on the shenanigans of the past. Joy was the person who turned that around, coming to us with a real desire to work that particular path, and her persistence finally won out. She'd be both astonished and gratified to know I was consenting now to do the occasional public drawing down.

You can use a knife to cook a fabulous meal with, or to cut someone down.
To repeat and agree, drawing down is a neutral tool like any other; it's what you do with it that counts.

[justusgirlz.livejournal.com]

Interesting post . . . here's my thoughts on the whole subject . . . which we kinda touched on a little over a year ago.

We're all energy - everything is energy in one form or another. Energy can be in many physical forms( a basic idea is that you can burn almost anything - meaning most physical items are a form of stored energy), and 'flavors'(positive, negative, anger, joy, creation, destruction.) Gods are symbolic of different flavors of energy.

I think everyone and everything originated from the same energy - akin to 'the Big Bang' - and at some time we will all return to it. Since we are a part of it, from it, and will return to it we are all connected to each other and everything in existence and therefore as holy as the original 'Big Bang' energy.

I think the concept of reincarnation is just energy changing from one form to another. Everything at one point was something else - you know, the line in the Moby song that we are all made of stars . . .

I think one energy can influence or affect others and vice versa.

I think we can use this to transform our lives - tapping into some aspects through prayer, meditation, ritual, etc. How do we wish to use our energy to create our lives, affect our surrounding, merge with other energies, etc . . .?

I think we need to be conscious of how our own personal energy can affect other people and our surroundings.

That, I guess, is the short form - when I have more time Sunday I can go into it further - but I think that gives you the jist of my thoughts.

[mage-imbroglio.livejournal.com]

Usefulness is an interesting take on the entire idea of meeting or drawing deity. I personally can't really imagine it not being useful, so long as the interaction is done with on open and conscious mind. I really don't see this as any different than meeting another person. My interactions with people, animals, gods, and trees for that matter, are opportunities for me to look at the reflection of myself in the universe. I may never understand the intent or perspective of the gods, but I will never really understand any of the other people either. I can make good estimations on what "I Think" there intentions, etc. are. But really, the most useful thing I can do from any interaction, is be conscious of myself in that situation, and learn to build a great self awareness and sense of compassion. Honestly, who cares if the Gods are real or not. I'm not even that concerned if the people around me are real or not. What I find important is if I can grow from what I'm perceiving to be true.

The entire line of thought of whether the Gods exist reminds me of Pema's description of the main character in "A Dangerous Mind" It didn't really matter if what he was seeing was real or not, it was real to him. He reacted to his hallucinations as if they were real, and made real life decisions based upon them. Of course, the real difference with a hallucination and our perceived experience is we usually agree with each others perceptions in real life. However, the Gods fall into a grey area which is more akin to hallucination. Just because I am experiencing deity (in my case usually Pan), doesn't mean what you are experiencing isn't a slightly hyper guy humping your leg and nothing more. Interaction with deity is so extremely personal, the attempt to debate it's validity falls apart.

So I say... Go with your spiritual/hallucinating self and grow into a greater and more compassionate person!

[badseed1980.livejournal.com]

2. However, aside from this, the interesting questions are not, "What are the Gods?" and "Are they real?", but "Are the Gods useful? If so, how?"

*raises hand*

I have a question. Useful to whom or to what?

[deboranter.livejournal.com]

Wow I'm so glad to see you writing this. I struggle with these questions all the time and my doubt is large. Seeing someone who is, well, you, struggle with the same thing and hearing that you had a history of suspicion kind of makes me feel like I'm not some weirdo and the doubt and struggle is natural.

since when does a neophyte stay out of other trads?

[tracyandrook.livejournal.com]

Until I found at least a temporary answer to how I could think of the gods, I was really very stuck with the homework and could not proceed. I was stuck for a year and just about gave up and started going for Buddhism again.
Then I had a suspicion based on reading _Luminous Emptiness: Understanding the Tibetan Book of the Dead_ by Francesca Fremantle (Shambhala, 2006)... so I asked a fellow I didn't know, who happened to be drawing a major deity at the time, and he supported my thoughts.
Certainly the word of one deity/human is not statistically significant. Since when was I supposed to poll all deities? Now I feel much more free to adopt patrons and compose rituals. Whatever psychodynamic the homework is meant to promote, could not manifest without a little traction in some kind of belief. Some kind of cosmological structure. In that respect, invocation and the gods were useful.

Re: since when does a neophyte stay out of other trads?

[sabrinamari.livejournal.com]

Excellent!

Waiting for Twilight...

[shades-of-nyx.livejournal.com]

I think you really need gwisteria's commentary here.

I haven't had your experiences, and all I can say is that my experience is so VERY different from yours.

Invocation is my gift. It is how I serve the Gods.

I don't yet understand your fear.

Maybe onyxtwilight can help us understand each other?

Re: Waiting for Twilight...

[onyxtwilight.livejournal.com]

Their fears are very simple -- we have adequate, nay, AMPLE evidence that some people, even people who should know better and should know what they're doing, will use invocation (and the stage and authority it creates) to manipulate other people (either by fake invocation, or invocation so heavily filtered by their own crap that it amounts to fake, even though there's a deity connection under there somewhere) in horrible ways. We've seen it before, other trads have seen it before, it's a thing.

The upshot of which is, no one who Draws gets a free pass and every message has to be evaluated within the context of our own experience. And messages which are unduly mean or harsh or somehow serve the ulterior motives of the vessel get lots of extra scrutiny.

I believe in the independent existence of the gods. But, to borrow a term from Starhawk, this is IMMANENT religion, so I also believe that the gods are not separate from us. Both things are true simultaneously.

I think invocation is an incredibly valuable and useful tool. (Hence the danger -- nothing this useful is safe.) But that doesn't mean people won't misuse it, either accidentally or on purpose. And that doesn't mean it always leaves us with perfect answers -- take the disagreement between Menthe and Aphrodite at FSG. Menthe said the first invocation absolutely was NOT Hades, but something impersonating Him. Aphrodite disagreed. We're left to evaluate the exchange the only way we can -- by taking the vessels and their filters into account, and coming to terms with it as best we can. We're left with no good answers, but things to think about.

Or, consider Himself's repeated advice to me -- which boils down to, if I want to get whatever it is He's wanting me to get, I have to run. Well, unless medical technology improves dramatically or He's willing to provide not just high-end energy healing but truly miraculous, "just fix it already" spontaneous healing for the internal injuries in both my feet (which existed prior to this current overall foot-pain problem), He's not getting it in this lifetime, because I can't do it. What to do? Nothing to do. But, consider -- the message came through the vessel of a priest who's pretty physically fit and conditioned. Is he/He onto something? Probably. But is there another way to get whatever it is He wants me to get? Maybe. But if it has to be running, it's going to have to wait 'til next time. If a heartrate elevated until I lose the rest of the world and there's only whatever I'm doing is sufficient, I might be able to find a way to do that as my fitness level improves. Time will tell. And if I go to my grave in this life unable to take this particular piece of advice, well, there it is, and that's the end of it.

Re: Waiting for Twilight...

[shakti-lemaris.livejournal.com]

So...the first thought that came to my head after reading the last paragraph of your comment is that you *could* run in this lifetime.

Underwater. It sounds silly, but it worked for me. In a pool, lake, or at the beach where the water is relatively calm. Water up to your nipples, close your eyes, bring yourself to the place He wants you to be, and run. It worked for me, being too heavy and having trick knees, to run for Someone who wished me to.

Re: Waiting for Twilight...

[shades-of-nyx.livejournal.com]

Water running is wonderful!
I did that in rehab from the injuries related below.

Re: Waiting for Twilight...

[shades-of-nyx.livejournal.com]

I am pro-scrutiny, but against rejection of a tool because it has danger.

(i.e. Don't reject the knife because it's sharp. How will you make dinner?)

As far as the "run" message, there are ways to make that happen. Unpleasant, slow, boring, painful ways. I trained back to being a competitive miler from simultaneous tibia and fibia breaks. It is possible. It just sucks! We could start with walk 100 yards, increase speed 100 yards, etc. until it became walk 100 jog 100, and actually have you run. We would need to be at the track every day, and we'd both cry a lot.

The midwest can't see this so they can't comment!

[shades-of-nyx.livejournal.com]

welshbard (Brett) and gwisteria Gerri would like to comment, but aren't on the filter!
Rill

Re: The midwest can't see this so they can't comment!

[sabrinamari.livejournal.com]

I checked because I thought they were both friended, and this is friend's locked. Gwisteria can see it, but to my surprise, welshbard was not friended. I fixed this, so both should be able to see it.

Comment away, honeys!