Correction

[sabrinamari]

The answer to the question "Do you believe in angels?" in the entry below should read as follows:

"I believe in discarnate entities, some of whom are kind, some of whom are not, many of whom are dysfunctional, just like us, and some of whom may even be less than brilliant. I do not think that being dead or discarnate automatically makes you smart or wise."

Comments

Deadness and Wisdom

[ingridsummers.livejournal.com]

I'm reading a great book on Santeria that talks about this very thing. One of the concepts I'm really liking is that if we are not in relationship with our ancestors, they get confused about what their role in our life should be. So, they contribute in interferring and confusing ways. If we maintain a relationship with them, their role becomes clearer and they can progress to greater wisdom.

Re: Deadness and Wisdom

[sabrinamari.livejournal.com]

This *is* interesting---it suggests that we can contribute to the continued growth of our ancestors at the same time that we open ourselves to the benefit of a strong a loving connection to them.

Does this book suggest how to enter into right relationship with one's ancestors?

Relationship with Ancestors

[ingridsummers.livejournal.com]

I think it both does and doesn't give information. The book Altar of my Soul by Marta Moreno Vega is about her journey into Santeria. So she talks about how she came into relationship with them through that faith.

Whether or not that is applicable to every ancestor and every faith? I would say "no". I think there is lots there that is adaptable and is cross-cultural. The shamanic studies I've been doing seem to indicate some similarities in how the ancestors relate to us (even when viewed through cultural lenses). The challange is that our ancestors (or at least mine) have been ignored for generations. There is no history for at least two, three or more on how I ought to relate to them. Would they even know how to respond? Does one's belief in a Christian Heaven (with the implication that there is no connection with descendants beyond death) preclude contact with them?

I don't know the answers to these questions. One of the reasons that I'm taking the Masks workshop is that it is the first of three leading to a fourth explicity designed to heal our ancestors. I feel a call to do that healing work. I feel a need to honor my ancestors (blood and otherwise) and I'm still learning what that means.

BTW - at Samhain, our children did a dumb supper. They were amazing and related having contact with pets who are still watching over them. I think one of the ways I'll learn about this is from my daughter.

Re: Relationship with Ancestors

[sabrinamari.livejournal.com]

"The shamanic studies I've been doing seem to indicate some similarities in how the ancestors relate to us (even when viewed through cultural lenses). The challange is that our ancestors (or at least mine) have been ignored for generations. There is no history for at least two, three or more on how I ought to relate to them. Would they even know how to respond? Does one's belief in a Christian Heaven (with the implication that there is no connection with descendants beyond death) preclude contact with them?"

I have no exposure to shamanic studies, but I'm very curious about the cross-cultural similarities that you've encountered. I hadn't thought about it all before you brought it up, but yes, my ancestors on both sides have been ignored for generations, as far as I know. I have no way of knowing if they would have any idea how to respond to me, or what tthey would do. I'm guessing that *their* belief in heaven might affect my ability to contact them; I don't think it would affect my efforts from this end, at least on this first attempt if mine to think about this.

I did call on my mother's ancestrs, some by name, at a Samhain ritual many years go, but I didn't have the sense that any real connection was made at that time. I think my first step might be to talk to my mother and my father about this. My mom may indeed have something to tell me about relationships with ancestors on her side of the family; she practices her own kind of Craft.

I don't know what my father will say.

But it seems to be a place to start. Perhaps your children give the best example of all: just reach out and listen, and see what happens.

Re: Relationship with Ancestors

[vgnwtch.livejournal.com]

In Germanic/Norse traditional beliefs, you have the Disir (lit. goddesses), the female ancestors who connect to the family and look over it, and the alfar (elves), who include male ancestors who seem to be mainly connected to the family land, as well as the landvaettir (land spirits). There are traditional disir-blots and alfar-blots in the winter. There exists also the idea that graves should be visited and made places of reverence, as the ancestors "live" in their graves (there are lots of stories of them feasting in their gravemounds), which ties in well with the idea of ancestors as elves (think of all those British stories where people go and sit on "fairy mounds" and get spirited off/have visions, etc.). Ancestors are also reincarnated, usually into the family line, and get to be with their gods in the appropriate hall. All at the same time. There is a well-known tale in which an Icelander who must choose between Christianity and his traditional beliefs is fought over by his disir, some of whom turn their backs on him, and some of whom accept his right to choose; there are also tales of disir taking on the solid forms of giant, heavily armed women who ride out against attackers to defend their descendants, and there's probably a connection with the Valkyries, who choose who will die in battle.

Manny's article on Asatru for Witchvox contains really good links to information on those beliefs. Jenny Blain's an anthropologist and Asatruar who engages in shamanic practises in the Germanic tradition. There's a huge interest in shamanic practises in the Asatru community, especially in seidh and spaeworking.

I remember a Vodouisant telling me that if "someone was an asshole in life, they're probably an asshole in death", though there was the possibility of change. My paternal grandmother did appear to me one Samhain, which threw me for a loop as she was as rabidly Roman Catholic and opposed to other religions as humanly possible; my sister has felt her protecting her many times (especially when she was on her motorbike).